KARL JASPERS FORUM
TA 106 (Müller)
Commentary 10 (to L Sundararajan)
by Koss-Chioino, Lothane, Mikes, Schuster
25 March 2008, posted 29 March 2008
I find that I must agree with Pete's honest and direct experiential proof ! The Spiritists, who subscribe to a parallel spirit world and whom I have studied and come to know very well, sometimes say: " I don't believe but what exists exists!" I will elaborate further at a later date.
Joan Koss-Chioino, Ph.D. (Anthropology)
From Zvi Lothane, MD (Psychiatry)
you may be humble about your erudition, but your heart and mind are in the right place. God needs no attacks and no apologetics. It is an idea, not a thing. There is also the concept of Godhead, the English translation of the German Gottheit, or the idea of the divine. All the above amounts to SPIRITUALITY, a soul idea.
Now the established RELIGIONS, i.e., institutions that sell God, who claim a copyright on God (others who would like to imitate them should bottle air and sell it, too), package Christ (one of the gods) together with commerce, conflict, conscription of armies, combat, Congress, etc., e.g., our Prez. Religions may contain an element of spirituality, but it is usually a trace of it. It is mostly convincing people to do awful things to each other in the name of God. And yes, the God of monotheism is not a white-bearded gentleman living in a palcace in the sky, ridiculed by Voltaire and by the Victorians as the 'gaseous vertebrate.'
In previous centuries people like Aquinas and Descartes philsophized with God. Then came Nietzsche who philosophized with the hammer. Now we philosphize with the brain. Remember: no brain, never mind !
>From Peter Schuster
Many thanks for those kind words. If only people would be so kind to others; what a wonderful world we would live in.
It has become a spiritual tragedy
what man has made out of GOD ! Be well, enjoy life and do no harm.
From John Mikes, SC.D. (Chemistry)
Dear Mr. Schuster (Pete),
you are quite eloquent. And your question represents an overwhelming majority of the 6 billion human population.
I have no business to respond, but I feel as having something to say after many many discussions in this topic with starting on the believeing side and ending up at the not believing ? - how can one NOT "believe in" what one does not believe ? I have today no notion what a 'god' represents, so I cannot be a denier. An 'agnostic' requires a god to deny.
I consider the assumption that 'there MUST be' is hollow and unsubstantiated, including your assumptions to "see the results from Him" - as you believe. Imaginary supernatural authorities are and have ever been excuses for doing harm. Christians invented the devil to escape the question: are all evil things also the doings of your god ?
I don't want to persuade you or any one of the 5+ billion to give up your faith, if it keeps you happy. I am simply afraid of the 'fallout' of powermongers, using the gullibility of believers to do harm (think of the crusades, the inquisition, the Muslim fundamentalist cruelties, the religious wars, the miseries of burning people etc. (the list is endless it goes on and on).
Political power can and does use religions to control people.
The assumptions are strong - belief system is unshakable.
Nobody so far showed that a good or bad deed was indeed done by a supernatural intelligence. People do them.
(What gives you the idea that world-'existence' had to start somehow, or more: that we are capable of understanding it?)
No argumentation works, the meaning of terms is different for people with different belief systems. What works is only the beheading, or stoning of the infidel as is still practiced.
To believe in going to heaven or the fear of going to hell is millennially ingrained and not subject to logical changing. In my opinion the reins (fear of eternal punishment) ARE still necessary for most people to keep them from doing really terrible things. On the other hand, however, it may lead by a religious fervour to killing the MD who performed abortions.
Be happy in your faith and allow others to miss such happiness. Nobody walks in the shoes of the other one.
From Peter Schuster
I agree in all you said. Being a Jew the invention of Hell is a great fear idea. Naturally we don't believe that story and many other new ones that came off our faith. Generally what ever exists man can change to fit his wants and needs.
Enjoy life and do no harm.